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DoddTheSlayer 2.0 Normal ?

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DoddTheSlayer
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Anmeldungsdatum: 28.12.2007
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo 04.08.2008 - 17:58    Titel: DoddTheSlayer 2.0 Normal ? Antworten mit Zitat

Should i make a Normal version of version 2.2 as i did for previos versions?
If so is there anyone here prepared to work with me in testing it until it is right?
We can use this thread to determine what would need to change to make the mod wnnable without party deaths but still challenging.
I don't want anyone to leave the mod because it is unplayable to them.
One thing though. You must play from start to finish in order to know what must be altered each step of the way. So you must temporarily abandon any rule you impose upon yourself to make this possible. I cannot do this without feedback.
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Pottenham
Hexer/Hexe
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di 05.08.2008 - 01:05    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

:winken:

You must have used the Mindread-Spell. Smile
First of all:I dont know how many Wiz-Players would be interestet in this.But personally,even in Vanilla-Wiz8,i thought that ALL of the Instant-Kill-Content should have been removed from the game.Although it was no real Problem there,i always felt like beeing cheatet by the game when my people where dying with 100%Health and in the best of moods,with absolutely no way to prevent that. Mad

Just my opinion but i think Instant Kill turns the idea of Roleplaying around:You carefully build up your Party,raising their resistances and skills,just to find out that the K.I. will take them out of the game whenever it is in the mood to do so,thats lame.

That would mean to remove all Instant-Death-Spells (Death-Wish,Asphyxiation,Death Cloud etc) from the game.Same goes for all Instant-Kill-Percentages on all of the Weapons (Stilettos,Blunder Busses etc) along with the disabeling of Critical Strike for all Characters in the Game.

Next thing i would suggest is:No Weapon in the Game should have a higher percentage than,lets say 5%,to disable an Opponent by paralyzing him,knocking him out or putting him to sleep etc.

I dont know what causes the players characters to miss those new opponents THAT OFTEN,even when those are 5 levels below the Players-Party-Level,but whatever it is it should be toned down just a bit.

There is one more thing that i am not 100% if it should be changed.
I have already opened up the door to the Breeder Rats in Trynton Smile .And i would have to check if it would be possible for a Frontrow-Character to survive those 16 Attacks per round that a single Opponent is handing out when my Chars are around Level 35 and trained with a shield plus Guardian Angel&Body of Stone cast upon them.The use of a shield could possibly result in not beeing hit with every strike that comes along.Been a long time since i trained my chars to use one so i am not sure if that would change anything.

I imaging it would be an enormous amount of work to change all this and i dont even know if all of that COULD be changed or if any of the Instant-Kill-Capabilities are unchangeable in any way,but i would be happy if i could help to acomplish such a task.

But first of all we should wait and see if anyone else would be interestet in a version such as this.

Grüße aus Pottenham

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di 05.08.2008 - 05:24    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Pottenham hat folgendes geschrieben:

I dont know what causes the players characters to miss those new opponents THAT OFTEN,even when those are 5 levels below the Players-Party-Level,but whatever it is it should be toned down just a bit.

Top
Pottenham hat folgendes geschrieben:

And i would have to check if it would be possible for a Frontrow-Character to survive those 16 Attacks per round that a single Opponent is handing out when my Chars are around Level 35 and trained with a shield plus Guardian Angel&Body of Stone cast upon them.

Top

Hi Dodd :winken:

That's what I wrote basically in my PN too. There is not need for me to get a special version but those "Impossibilities" should be removed.

Usually I have no problems with Instant Kill, I once finished a game with a total of 7 kills only. But If some Lvl 10 monsters in Arnika already have 6 attacks/round plus Instant Kill and they're able to kill 3 of my 6 party members (Lvl 10 too) within two rounds with Instant Kill, with nearly no chance by myself to hit them, it seems a little bit (hmmmm ...) unfair. Even for a player that doesn't care about reloading (IMO).
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DoddTheSlayer
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di 05.08.2008 - 06:39    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I did not realise that they could instant kill. I just put them with level 7 Treasure hunters because they are only level 5.
It turns out that they are nastier than the level 10 Higardi Brigand.

For normal version there would be only 1 treasure hunter with each gang and the Higardi male would have that 5% kill removed and just have 1 attack 2 swings for each round.

The AP Guardian battles would be much smaller and all boss battles toned down.
I have the normal version of 1.3 to use as a model for the scaling down of the monster stats of all non vanilla monsters.
It isn't a big job.
I would not change any weapons, just the monsters as it was in the previous versions of the mod.

Critical Kill cannot be removed as a skill. This is hard-coded. All you can do is not use the classes that have it.

One other thing that i did in the normal version for 1.3 was to make it so that only Level 40 monsters can cast Cloak of death and Antimagic.

What do think to the Imprisoned enchanters being lowered to level 20 and the gangs guarding them being reduced from level 35 down to 25 ?
This would make those battles a little tougher than the trade route gangs, and at the same time remove the possibility of having an overpowered character in your team should you find an easy way to win as some have.
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Pottenham
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di 05.08.2008 - 13:38    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

:winken:

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:

For normal version there would be only 1 treasure hunter with each gang and the Higardi male would have that 5% kill removed and just have 1 attack 2 swings for each round.


No,i would not feel good about that.I think the mobs are nice as they are now,as long as they dont InstaKill and are just a bit easier to hit.

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:

The AP Guardian battles would be much smaller and all boss battles toned down.


I didnt see that AP Guardian Battle by now so I dont want to say anything wrong about it.But the main problem in the big battles is imho the melee Opponents are handing out so much damage that there seems no way to survive that,InstaKill or no InstaKill.Guardian Angel is of no use in those Battles cause it will be gone after the first strike,the second strike usually paralyzes or k.o.s the Char while the remainig strikes will be delivered to his prone,helpless body.BUT,THATS WHAT HAPPENED TO MY LEVEL 20-PARTY.
I dont know how a battle like this will look like when my party would have reached a higher Level.Lets say Level 35 for facing a Level 40 Opponent Group,and if they where skilled in using a shield.I could imaging that this could result in making a now hopeless battle into a tough but winable one.So it might be that those battles would not have to be changed at all.Further testing would be required here.
I would have to create a new group with Front-and Side-Caracters using a Shield,bring them up to Level 35 and sent them into battle to finally say something about that.That would take me probably another week if i would start now and do nothing else.But i would really first like to try if i cant manage to bring my aktual party through the present version.I am still not convinced that its impossible. :smokin:

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:

Critical Kill cannot be removed as a skill. This is hard-coded. All you can do is not use the classes that have it.


Yes,but are there Monsters using that skill and can they so InstaKill me without using a weapon with kill-percentage.Maybe i am wrong about how the game works with that.Are those Kill Statistics bound to the weapon that the Opponents use or is it more like "a ninja-monster WILL InstaKill you because it has Critical Strike",no matter what. :angst:

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:

One other thing that i did in the normal version for 1.3 was to make it so that only Level 40 monsters can cast Cloak of death and Antimagic.


Cloak of Death,Antimagic ? - Never met one Confused . My party is still around Level 22,you know?

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:

What do think to the Imprisoned enchanters being lowered to level 20 and the gangs guarding them being reduced from level 35 down to 25 ?


I dont think that will be necessary.I am pretty confident that i will kick their asses when i am around Level 30 in the present version,asuming that they will not hit me with every strike. Smile

Grüße aus Pottenham

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi 06.08.2008 - 09:19    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Ok. I will hold off for now.
I should also mention that there are still bugs to be fixed for this current version and instead of releasing another patch i am going to re-release the full mod as version 2.3 which will include all bug fixes up till now and some that are not introduced yet.
The Arnika traders are a little tougher. Not so they can help you though because they cannot fight any better, but i have made given them more hit points and evasion stats so that they are not accidently killed in the crossfire from the tough monsters.
As it is now Antone in particular can come running out to help you and get easily killed if any monsters happen to come past the armoury while chasing you. Anna too will sometimes come running out of the shop if you hide in her doorway to fight. So i just made them more durable.
There will be a list of all fixes at the bottom of the readme file.
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Loudhy
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi 06.08.2008 - 09:34    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Pottenham hat folgendes geschrieben:

No,i would not feel good about that.I think the mobs are nice as they are now,as long as they dont InstaKill and are just a bit easier to hit.

DoddTheSlayer hat folgendes geschrieben:
Ok. I will hold off for now.

Do you change the abilities of those monsters as Pottenham mentioned or do you change nothing ?
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi 06.08.2008 - 18:21    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

The changes mentioned are not enough for me to make a normal version.
I can remove the ability of the level 5 Higardi male to instakill.
I will do that for now with the update on the current version, but to be convinced to make a normal version i will need feedback from those having completed the mod and seeing needed changes from start to finish.
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Pottenham
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do 21.08.2008 - 23:24    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

:winken:

Now that i have seen the whole picture (since my party ascended on Level 29,version 2.2) i must say that even if there was a lighter version of the mod i wouldnt play it. Smile

The difficulty of the fights is nice,the way it is (when you have learned which opponents your party can handle and wich you better leave alone,until later).There is still the excessive use of Instant-Kill-Stuff/Spells that would be lowering my personal enjoyment in future attempts,but i have already changed that myself (using Mad Gods Editor) before i started my new group,wich is now already on the way.

I can only hope you dont mind me making changes to your work,but its only for my personal enjoyment of the game. :angst:

After a few fights i can say that,with these changes,the mod is near to perfection,in regards of my personal taste. Top
I would really like to say something that you could use to make the mod any better but i am afraid the new content&areas are so well placed and executed that there is no critisism that i can place here Very Happy .

Smaller glitches i might find in my upcoming attempt i will post in the patches thread.

The only thing that could make the mod better is imho voiceacting on the new npcs and traders,wich is of course impossible unless you know a bunch of professional voiceactors that would like to contribute to your project without getting payed :smokin: .

You know,Wiz8 is one of my favourite games of all times and i can hardly find the words to describe how nice it is to find this game being resurrected and improved in a most interresting and professional way. Very Happy
Thanks for this.
I mean seriously,Thanks :danke: .

Grüße aus Pottenham

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DoddTheSlayer
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BeitragVerfasst am: Fr 22.08.2008 - 14:42    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Thanks. glad you like everything.
Actually the locations could be better with the ability that the editor has now, but i was making this mod during the most radical developments for the terrain editing and so ended up having to spend much time being a tester for everything implemented.
My new locations were made before it was possible to strip a location template completely bare and start from scratch, and so i was forced to use flat ground only for technical reasons.
You will notice that all my locations are flat. That is because if i tried to create new ground at that time it would have no monster pathfinding data and the monsters would not be able to move.

Even so. As basic as they are it took 6 months to do them, many times doing more than 10 hours in a day.

Voices was something i wanted also but there is also the matter of have professional sound equipment, especially a microphone, and then you need a noise free environment to record.
So i figured that even just giving the enchanters and Alicia some of those pcs voices was better than no voice at all.
Problem is you only get their voices when you hire them as rpc's and most players will not keep an rpc in the party other than for necessary quests.

So how did you find the 3 temple guardian battles on AP ?
They are the toughest in the game, and you must surely have had to do many rtloads to get a win with no death in the party.
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Pottenham
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa 23.08.2008 - 00:10    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

:winken:

Yes,putting the basic Sirtech voices on Alicia & the others is definitely a nice improvement.To be honest i usually dont take RPCs into my party because they are valuable fighters but to have some company and to listen to their comments.

The temple guardian battles on AP where hard but in all 3 locations i could find a spot where only my 2 Front Chars could be attacked.They where protected by BoS,Bless & Guardian Angel.BoS reduced the damage that the Guardian Angel had to absorb drastically plus the opponents didnt hit me that often,in most of the rounds that was enough to keep any damage away from my Front Chars.Spells couldnt hurt my party members too seriously anymore because they had pretty high resistances(hybrid party).

I have to confess:My Lord died in that battle against the Oak Guardians and i had to revive him Smile .I believe i could have done it with no Deaths but that battle was a long one and i was happy to finally manage to win this,so i decided to let loose of my self imposed rules. Cool
Only one single Death is not so bad either,is it? Lachen ist gesund

But this gave me the inspiration for my next attempt.I thought if i had trained my 2 Front Chars to use a shield instead of 2 weapons maybe those Oak Guardians wouldnt have hit me that often,and maybe that would give me a better chance to finish the mod without any individual Deaths,next time. :smokin: .

Grüße aus Pottenham

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DoddTheSlayer
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa 23.08.2008 - 05:24    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Yes. I guess having the rule of no character deaths is not so bad if you are allowing yourself reloads to erase the death.
It is a much more punishing on you as a player if you have the rule of dead party = end of game and no reload is allwed.
I have no choice in this personally because if my party gets killed i have no interest in that game anymore.
Continuing that game onto the cosmic circle and defeating the dark savant would have no meaning for me with the knowledge that my party has suffered a death.
As a result of this i have never completed my own mod, because i will not play more than 3 characters.
I am the same with Might & Magic. I am ok with having to ressurect one character with another because that is part of the the game, but if the party dies and a screen says your party is defeated, then i just cannot continue. I have tried,but just cannot enjoy or ssee the point in that particular game anymore.

I think loudhy feels the same way. I very tough if you lose through a mistake or carelessness.
I have to play something else for a few days or even a week before i have the motivation to start up another game.
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Pottenham
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa 23.08.2008 - 13:16    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

:winken:

Yes,i get your point. Smile
I think your Rules (and Loudhys) are the toughest ones anybody can impose on himself.Much worse than my own ones. Very Happy

I also told this to Loudhy when he was very close to abandon the mod,completely.But Loudhy is even more merciless to himself,because he doesnt even allow himself to choose the strongest party for his 1rst attempt.It has to be No-Spellcasters or Spellcasters-only,for him. Cool

I can hardly imaging how much tension must be in the Air when you dont even allow yourself just one single tiny little mistake. :smokin:

But playing with only 3 party-members could be interesting(and tough).I guess they should be able to rise much faster in Levels but Front Chars cannot be protected that well.Hmmm...maybe i´ll try this next time Smile

Grüße aus Pottenham

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